Redstoner Discord ! :D

Off topicOther → Redstoner Discord ! :D

Me and Sky was bored so we opened a discord server :D Click me to join :D

We play songs there :D

Discord is an amazing app with a rock-solid ToS! It’s been so much better than Skype and TeamSpeak in my use of it.
Woah woah woah have you read the T&Cs for Discord? They can do basically anything with your data! Also, what kind of company advertises their products by discouraging you from using others? Skype and TS work fine…
i agree with @PyjamaL1ama discord is too insecure.

@PyjamaL1ama Actually yes. I had to after the guy in the other thread spread so much misinformation. The ToS is absolutely fine, and no, they can’t “do basically anything with your data”. And many startups/underdogs use comparisons with the current top services since there’s not many people to vouch for their own service since it’s less popular. It’s common practice, effective, and in no way says anything about the company’s character like you imply.

Skype is an absolute clusterfuck and Discord simply is an alternative for both Skype with the convenience of being a TeamSpeak-like service as well.

@Stomachfoot Where did anyone say that Discord is too insecure? PJ didn’t.

Oh come on, even Pan will back me up on the T&C thing -,-

Sure, Skype isn’t great, but what’s wrong with TS? And you STILL don’t advertise by discouraging people from using services you’re competing with, however bad or good they may be.

Oh, and zomb, aren’t you banned?

@PyjamaL1ama Yes I’m banned.

Did you actually even read the ToS yourself? It’s perfectly fine.

There isn’t much wrong with TS (except exposing your IP), but the convenience of a service that combines the best features of Skype and TeamSpeak but adds more makes both redundant to use.

And why not? Their entire purpose was to be a better alternative for Skype and TeamSpeak. A feature comparison chart is an excellent way to see how the different services stack up to each other.

@zombachu

Yes, I read the T&Cs.

The feature comparison list is fine but the phrase ‘‘It’s time to ditch Skype and TeamSpeak’’ isn’t really… It basically says ‘Our competition is shit, use us because we have no better arguments or reasons to use our software!’

And I mean come on, look at it, they kinda just ripped off Slack and added voice chat…

@PyjamaL1ama What’s the issue with their ToS then?

Slack ripped off all other messaging platforms. Your point?

And I guess we’ll agree to disagree about their message.

I had to after the guy in the other thread spread so much misinformation.

I think you’re talking about me. What do you consider being misinformation? I didn’t make stuff up, I QUOTED from their T&C. That’s not making stuff up.

If you’re talking about the reddit part, I used the Dev’s reddit posts there as a source, I didn’t make up any of the information.

If you’re talking about the technical background I used the pages information they were providing and personal experience (like browsers are eating a shitload of RAM) as a source.

If there were any more information that were not backed up by any evidence at all I’m sorry if I made a mistake there, please provide me with the wrong information so I can fix my talk about them or tell you the correct sources. Yes I know, I didn’t embed sources in my previous talks as all pages I used were either linked before already or part of the discord page. Excluding information about the iPad MOBA game which I couldn’t really research as I didn’t have access to the page with my phone.

TL;DR: Don’t use this service!

Greetings

~Pepich~

PS: As the old thread is lost I’ll make the offer again: If anyone thinks about using this service for his own purpose, use the redstoner ts or ask me if you really need a private ts channel, I can probably help you out with that :)

[EDIT]: I restrained from making a long talk about the why’s this time as you are probably just going to delete it again anyways. There are plenty of people who agree with me (Pan, Llama, Stomachfoot and I think some more guys from the original thread). Read the T&C and then if you understood what they mean you will agree with me too. If not, reread again. Trust me, you don’t want to use their services.

@Pepich1851

Just because you quote someone doesn’t make whatever you say after correct. For example:

I think you’re talking about me. What do you consider being misinformation? I didn’t make stuff up, I QUOTED from their T&C. That’s not making stuff up.

The above quote indicates that Pepich1851 is a racist and a homophobe who regularly attends satanic rituals. … See how that works? Of course in your case it wasn’t that terrible, but you were still spreading misinformation and fearmongering.

As for the misinformation you were spreading… It wasn’t the browser part (which is still irrelevant since 1. It doesn’t apply to every site and 2. There’s native clients for every major platform). Nearly every quote you quoted you either selected to exclude information so it fit your narrative, or you provided analysis that had no basis in quotes and was pure speculation. If you would make that post again, I would be happy to dissect it and show where you were wrong.

Discord is great and if you need a Skype alternative it’s a good choice that also removes the need for a separate TeamSpeak server.

Umm you know that I don’t keep backups of my posts!? How shall I make that one again? Please tell me…

I’ll try to get SOME parts back together tho:

I do know which parts of the T&C I quoted though and I’ll do it the following now: Copy the complete T&C over here and mark the parts I quited in red. Hope it won’t be marked as spam lol - [NOPE! Won’t do that, they’re too long. I’ll just copy the complete section and mark my quotes then…]

Your Data Any data, text, graphics, photographs and their selection and arrangement, and any other materials uploaded to the Service by you is “Your Data.” You represent and warrant that Your Data is original to you and that you exclusively own the rights to such content, including the right to grant all of the rights and licenses in these Terms without the Company incurring any third party obligations or liability arising out of its exercise of such rights and licenses. All of Your Data is your sole responsibility and the Company is not responsible for any material that you upload, post, or otherwise make available. ==By uploading, distributing, transmitting or otherwise using Your Data with the Services, you grant to us a nonexclusive, transferable, royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license to use Your Data, subject to the Company’s Privacy Policy==. The Company does not guarantee the accuracy, quality, or integrity of any user content posted. By using the Service you acknowledge and accept that you may be exposed to material you find offensive or objectionable. You agree that the Company will not under any circumstances be liable for any user content, including, but not limited to, errors in any user content, or any loss or damage incurred by use of user content.The Company reserves the right to remove and permanently delete Your Data from the Service with or without notice for any reason or no reason. You may notify the Company of any user content that you believe violates these Terms, or other inappropriate user behavior, by emailing noreply+1109@redstoner.com.

That was my first quote. Tell me how I wrongly say that the company has all rights to spread your data around as they would like to?

==Big chunk of BULLSHIT was here, removed it after getting told better below :)==

Performance wise I said that browsers are just BAD! Just google “Chrome RAM” or “Firefox RAM” or “Opera RAM” or “ RAM” and you will find plenty of examples where browsers are just bad in terms of ressources. Therefor it’s a bad idea to let your browser run during intense gaming, but discord forces you to do so (UPDATE: Now I know that appearantly they don’t cause they offer you a client. Which I didn’t know when I said above. Still can’t find a download link for a client though.) [EDIT:] FOUND IT, FOUND IT, YAY! /me is proud of himself! /lol. So they’re worse in terms of “taking away power you would need for gaming”.

After I heard of the client version I stated that I don’t know how the client affects performance, but is even worse in terms of data security/privacy than a browser, cause a browser kind of traps the thing in a sandbox and doesn’t give it access to your offline data.

I think this was all I mentioned about that topic. But wait, there’s more!. Nah just kidding. Everything else I noticed now is peanuts compared to what I already brought up so fork it :P

Then I continued to talk about some reddit posts of them:

The reddit post: link

I’m especially talking about the users nfowleri and illumina_. nfowleri pointed at the exact same problems as I did (well the T&C were a little different back then but doesn’t really matter) and illumina_ said he/she is one of the devs and the CEO. Those comments were FOUR months ago (I’m now linking to the stuff and calling out names as in the original thread all that was done before and I didn’t think it would be nessecary as you would’ve seen the comment when you clicked on the link given above… Now I’m doing so because noone else linked to that stuff in this thread.).

Looking through illumina_’s profile (or further down that post) you can find this (7 days ago - September 13, 2015):

Bradifer:

we haven’t had a chance to make a new one specifically for it yet. I realize that’s not ideal, but we’ll have a Discord specific policy ready soon.

Hi Jason, was interested in trying out Discord but this privacy polcies stuff is enough to scare me away, literally forever.

Has this policy been updated now that you’ve officially started marketing via Reddit?

Thanks.

illumina_:

Hey Brad - Not just yet. I’m actually working on updating our company site to include the policies right now. So, they should be out soon.

For what it’s worth our practices are not changing, we have always built and run Discord in a way that respects your privacy. We are just updating the legal documents to more accurately reflect what we do.

And looking at the T&C:

Last modified: September 12, 2015.

Looks a bit odd, doesn’t it!? Telling the user it was ==not updated yet== when it really was updated a day ago?! Yep I know this section is new, didn’t notice it last time :P It gets worse the further you dig appearantly…

==Shame on you USA for not having data protectioning laws as most other big countrys do. Sorry for blaming this on hammer and chisel==

And rumors stated that you appearantly can’t delete your account anymore, but ==I can’t confirm this as I will NEVER touch that service==. This is unconfirmed from my side.

Greetings

~Pepich~

PS: Send me a mail ingame with a mailadress/skype name/slack name if you want to discuss this in private. I promise I won’t sell any of the information you’re giving me about contact details of yours. LOL.

[EDIT]: Cleaned it up a little. Removed wrong stuff as stated below.

Somehow I can’t edit my reply anymore and add even more to it at the end xD Maybe character limit reached or sth…?

[EDIT]:

Just because you quote someone doesn’t make whatever you say after correct. For example:

I think you’re talking about me. What do you consider being misinformation? I didn’t make stuff up, I QUOTED from their T&C. That’s not making stuff up.

The above quote indicates that Pepich1851 is a racist and a homophobe who regularly attends satanic rituals. … See how that works? Of course in your case it wasn’t that terrible, but you were still spreading misinformation and fearmongering.

Yes! That’s true! Congratulations! You found out that just because I put a random quote infront of something the thing I say itself can be a lie! It’s true, it’s on the internet! is bullshit! And I am happy that you know that because it shows that you can think on your own and are not stupid enough to trust and believe everything you see on the web! But WHY do it with discord then? If you read my post maybe you get a hint of that I didn’t do what you did AT ALL. Your example is overdoing the job though. Oh, and as we’re talking about “stuff that’s not true but on the internet”, I got something for you:

Our intention is to build an amazing product that modernizes VOIP and Chat apps for gamers. We do not intend to profit off of invading your privacy or selling your data. We will not sell your data to 3rd parties. We will not read your messages or record your conversations.

Might that be one of those “untrue statements”? Maybe even a lie? :O Who knows? :)

@Pepich1851

Part 1

That was my first quote. Tell me how I wrongly say that the company has all rights to spread your data around as they would like to?

They need the worldwide license for the filesharing feature. Without including that in the ToS then they’re susceptible to being sued for distributing your data, which is kinda the entire point of being able to share files. If I recall correctly, in your original post you mentioned only trusting name companies like Facebook and Google… Let’s take a look at Google’s Terms and Conditions for Drive:

When you upload, submit, store, send or receive content to or through our Services, ==you give Google (and those we work with) a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works (such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such content.==

Wow, that looks familiar doesn’t it? Let’s take a look at the exact line you highlighted in your quote:

By uploading, distributing, transmitting or otherwise using Your Data with the Services, you grant to us a nonexclusive, transferable, royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license to use Your Data, subject to the Company’s Privacy Policy.

How shocking that a service that offers file sharing needs permission to share files!

Now for your next two mistakes… Let’s examine the next quote that you chose, with your highlighting:

Intellectual Property Rights ==All rights, title and interest in and to all materials that are part of the Service (including, but not limited to, designs, text, graphics, pictures, video, information, applications, software, music, sound and other files, and their selection and arrangement), except for Your Data, collectively referred to as the “Service Materials”, are, as between the Company and you, owned by the Company and/or its third party licensors.== You acknowledge and agree that you shall not acquire any ownership rights whatsoever by downloading Service Materials or by purchasing any Virtual Currency or Virtual Goods (each as defined below).

And now for your third quote:

Third-Party Services We use third-party services to help us provide the Service, but such use does not indicate that we endorse them or are responsible or liable for their actions. In addition, the Service may link to third-party websites to facilitate its provision of services to you. If you use these links, you will leave the Service. ==Some of these third-party websites may use Service Materials under license from us.== We are not responsible for nor do we endorse these third-party websites or the organizations sponsoring such third-party websites or their products or services, whether or not we are affiliated with such third-party websites. You agree that we are not responsible or liable for any loss or damage of any sort incurred as a result of any such dealings you may have on or through a third-party website or as a result of the presence of any third-party advertising on the Service.

And your claim?

I stated that they not only have the rights to but here actually state that they will most likey share your data!

Waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait

What are the last two words you used?

your data

I remember seeing those exact words in a quote before.. Oh yeah, back to the second quote!

All rights, title and interest in and to all materials that are part of the Service (including, but not limited to, designs, text, graphics, pictures, video, information, applications, software, music, sound and other files, and their selection and arrangement), except for Your Data, collectively referred to as the “Service Materials”, are, as between the Company and you, owned by the Company and/or its third party licensors.

Now where was it… Ah, there it is:

All rights, title and interest in and to all materials that are part of the Service (including, but not limited to, designs, text, graphics, pictures, video, information, applications, software, music, sound and other files, and their selection and arrangement), except for ==Your Data==, collectively referred to as the “Service Materials”, are, as between the Company and you, owned by the Company and/or its third party licensors.

Now what about the words before it?

==except for== Your Data

In the exact same quote you used it precisely contradicts your “point”. I think it’s quite obvious that you didn’t read the ToS and instead have copy and pasted random quotes in hopes that it fits your narrative. This isn’t really relevant but since it seems that I’m the only one here who has read the ToS and made any real sense of it, what do those sections mean? Basically Discord is just alerting you that they use services and products not created by them (programming languages, apis, servers, etc) and may have made partnerships which they might link on their site or by other means. By leaving Discord’s services and site to go to such 3rd party services, Discord is not liable for anything that might happen there (quite reasonable), and even though those services may use some assets of Discord’s (name, logo, images of their app, graphics, etc), it doesn’t necessarily mean that Discord 100% supports and endorses everything that those separate entities say or do.

Now what about your claims about the codecs? While I can admit that I don’t know much about the differences between each codec and their benefits, having multiple codecs does sound like a win for TeamSpeak. However, let’s take a look at your claim about the bitrate:

I talked about the Codec, mentioning the bad audio quality (40kbps compared to 312kbps you will get with mp3 audio files)

Where did you get the bitrate for Discord from? I’m not finding it anywhere on the site. I did some research and found this comment from a Discord dev on reddit saying that the bitrate is 48kbps. Not a huge difference from your claim of 40kbps, but the amount of misinformation you’re spreading is certainly adding up. Another number stands out here for me and that’s 312. Never in my life have I ever seen a mp3 file with a bitrate of 312. 256 and 320, sure, but not 312. After some research I found the standard bitrates for the various versions of MPEG. In no version is 312 an acceptable bitrate. I think it’s clear by this point that you’re just pulling things from your ass. +1 misinformation.

Now back to your claim of the audio quality being bad… A comparison of online voice calls to a high-quality audio file you already have downloaded on your computer meant for stereo headphones and a wide range of acoustics and depth is not only unfair, it’s just stupid. You’re comparing apples to oranges here. But let’s see how Discord lines up with Skype and TeamSpeak in terms of bitrate:

The support documents for Skype give an average range, and 48kbps (for Discord) is certainly in between the 24kbps-128kbps range that Skype says it uses on average. What about teamspeak? The support document here mention the quality being set to a certain amount of a variable range but even then it’s still 12.3kbps for a single user, much less than 48kbps. It also mentions being able to set the quality to 25.9kbps, which is still well below 48kbps. It can be assumed that since these are the values that TeamSpeak chose to base the math around for their help document, then they find the quality for such values good enough or recommended.

@Pepich1851

Part 2

As for the game overlay, they do indeed not have one available currently but they do mention that they’re working on it and it’s coming soon. I read that differently than you, seeing it as saying “We admit that we’re not up to par in this section but we will be soon.” And where have they “Said overwolf is shit” since I’m not finding that anywhere on their site. I’m chalking that up to being another case where you’ve pulled something out of your ass.

Now about about all your talk about a definition for a “Modern Text Chat”? (emphasis added)

There was the “modern text chat” talk: They say teamspeak does not offer a modern text chat. Define “modern text chat”. google won’t give me any results on this so appearantly I can define it as I wish. ==But they don’t do it anywhere.== Therefor they’re saying ts is worse cause it doesn’t have a “modern” text chat (even though it’s not meant to be a platform where you are writing but talking) but it does include a text chat.

It’s really apparent you didn’t look anything up at all or even merely scroll down the page for an additional 2 seconds due to it being right here on the MAIN PAGE. I’ve stopped keeping track at this point, but the obvious lack of research and the constant making up of facts and analysis without supporting evidence makes it really hard to take you seriously.

And your quotes from reddit?

illumina_

Hey Brad - Not just yet. I’m actually working on updating our company site to include the policies right now. So, they should be out soon. For what it’s worth our practices are not changing, we have always built and run Discord in a way that respects your privacy. We are just updating the legal documents to more accurately reflect what we do.

He very clearly states that he’s in the process of updating it now. So maybe while he hasn’t done an entire revision yet, he may have already started to roll out changes. Also, reddit rounds times. Check out what happens when you actually check things: 1 I agree with you that the terms were updated on the 12th. Now when was his post made? 2 Surprise, time zones exist! For me in Hawaii it was made on the 12, but it would also still be made on the 12 if he was on the west coast of America. So no, it doesn’t “Looks a bit odd”.

Also, can you please link a source for the laws you mentioned? Since such a citation is conveniently missing.

And it seems like you have no idea how analogies work from your latest post. I wasn’t talking about how people can just say anything on the internet. Instead, I was saying just because someone quotes something accurately doesn’t mean that any analysis they present after that is undoubtedly true.

[O] Rekt [O] Not rekt [X] Tyrannosaurus rekt

Ok, rereading this part:

By uploading, distributing, transmitting or otherwise using Your Data with the Services, you grant to us a nonexclusive, transferable, royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license to use Your Data, subject to the Company’s Privacy Policy.

I now see that they call their own stuff “Service material”. Sorry, as english is not my native language I misinterpreted the punctuation and somehow thought they would call only your data the service material. Definitly my fault. Yes.

Bitrates are messed up due to me being tired and just trying to get back together my texts from back then. Yes I did mean 320 and not 312. I’m often confusing those. Didn’t bother to actually look it up again.

As reddit states right there the post was made “7 days ago”. Again I didn’t bother looking up the exact time as I believed when they’re giving it on a day like output it would be on a day of accuracy, making it 7 days ago -> the 13th.

About the sharing part: I’m supposed to give them “transferable rights” to my data? That does mean they can give others the rights to publish my data, right?

Codecs again: Using Opus you can get up to 510kbps. But not with teamspeak. It never states what the maximum is (at least I can’t find it on my phone right now, might be a different story on my pc) but ts offers different options for voice and music channels. With sweex the maximum would be 44kbps. I can’t tell you the differences with those are in the ts internals as I don’t have a way of looking intot he code. Fact is: 320kbps would be insane to stream, not talking about 510kbps. I was aware of that but still compared it with an 320kbps mp3 which is actually kinda stupip. Yep. Still I considered 128kbps as a reasonable bitrate for that. Looks like my tech knowledge was a little wrong there (by over 100% as a factor -.-)

Integrating pictures into the chat as the criteria whether it’s a modern text chat or not is kinda pointless as it adds stress to the cpu but other than that… Yeah ok fine take that as your criteria as it IS mentioned on the page and ts does not have such integration. It actually is peanuts.

I was referring to something like this but forgot the fact that our great friend the usa (where hammer and chisel is located) are not giving a shit about you and therefor actually don’t support any laws like that. So it’s completely legal if they collect your data for no reason and you can’t interact with it at all. Right there it’s a shame on you usa and not on the company. My fault as well.

They never said overwolf was shit, in that case it was my personal opinion :P Finally something that’s not my fault by misunderstanding something but yours by misunderstanding something xD Well the sentence I used can be misunderstood (Said that Overwolf is shit, but they don’t have one at all - should actually be I said that Overwolf is shit but they don’t have one at all) -> Again my native language is not english and it’s late here so I’m pretty tired. I know I shouldn’t write such things when I’m tired anyways and at best I’m pissed at something so I go write stuff without reading it all over and trying to take it apart myself as I usually do and then you end up with stuff like that.

We’re left with the first quote. The difference between google and discord is that google distinguishes between personal information and imersonal data. They don’t gather any rights to give out your home adress or phone number when you need to give it to them. Hammer and Chisel does not. Anything you tell them is just “your data” and therefor can be spread. They even have the right to allow others to spread it further. Google does not. Btw they even link to the old T&C at some points maning it actually impossible to tell which ones are the valid ones in the end. Link to the other T&C they got is here. Both are linked so in the end you can’t really determine which ones they’ll bring up in case someone takes something to court. I just found this so I didn’t mention it before. Happens when you go: main page -> help -> privacy. I’d just consider it being a bug now but yeah. Happened on my phone.

I’ll happily proceed to remove any wrong information placed by me so I don’t spam this thread with that stuff (as I already did enough) and don’t confuse people with it :)

~Pep~

@Skrileton thanks for the nice and constructive posts pushing the topic forward helping me see my mistakes and correct them and us in general to find out whether the T&C are really as bad as I thought in the first place :)

Greetings

~Pep~

@Pepich1851

Your English is actually really good, but it does show in things like misreading/interpreting the ToS.

As for

About the sharing part: I’m supposed to give them “transferable rights” to my data? That does mean they can give others the rights to publish my data, right?

I had to research this because the legal terms are a bit technical, but if I understand this correctly, then the rights being “transferable” means that they can offer the same license to other people without getting your permission.

Also, where are you seeing:

Anything you tell them is just “your data” and therefor can be spread.

Even in their old ToS it says that they won’t share your personal data unless you give them explicit permission to, it is required by law, or unless they anonymously aggregate it if they do share it with advertisers, etc.

Not “even” in the old documents they made that differentiation, but “only”. And I was just noting that both are valid for that page and you can’t really tell which ones are the actual ones. As I said I only guess a bug there rather than intentionally designing it like that to mislead people.

Might it be that they don’t require any personal data to be given to create an account and therefor there’s no handling of personal data at all?

@Pepich1851

I think that’s the case since the only information they get from you is your email, which you can change anytime in the future.