Tatl_Tael
Redstoner → Appeals → Tatl_Tael
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Tatl_Tael trusted rank demotion appeal
Type of punishment: Indefinite demotion
Demotion reason: Repeated toxicity
What I have done wrong: https://prnt.sc/mp93aa
Why I should be re-promoted: If any person on the server, staff, or beyond is capable of producing a single document proving that Futsy specifically told me that I could lose my Trusted rank, with validation, I will rest this case immediately and take the punishment without question. When I achieved helper rank, I was warned only twice, once by DM from Futsy, and once in game that if I continued to be toxic that I would lose helper rank. He stated ONLY helper rank would be lost. Conveniently today, a whole 2 months later, he cited himself once again saying: “We did warn you both in game and on discord even after you got demoted from helper, but also just that ytou got demoted from helper because you were toxic should be a warning in it self” I’m going to have to paint a picture about this point I’m trying to make but lets say that you are in a respectable position such as a manager in some company and say or do some things that come to bite you in the ass. They tell you that if you don’t get your act together, they’ll remove you from that position and they do because you didn’t listen. Let’s say again that while you’re in a lower position of the common worker, where you no longer have responsibilities, that one day without warning the same punishment is given because you still were being the same. Nobody told you that the same thing could happen again now that you didn’t have the expectations to act a certain way, nobody told you that remaining the same as you’ve been since your initial promotion could demote you arbitrarily two years later, and most importantly, nobody gave you any warnings after the first punishment. I was warned ONLY TWICE about being demoted specifically and exclusively from Helper rank and both of them only by Futsy. In no instance was multiple demotions implied or stated. In short, I was given absolutely no warning that I could be demoted from trusted, no mod told me that I should stop being toxic. I could point fingers at other instances of toxic mods but that is not what this thread is about I would also like to remind everyone that Futsy said word for word: “Just so everyone are aware: We do not demote people from trusted without asking every staff member, so this was a vote where the majority of staff agreed.”  Understandable that you would discuss this but you didn’t talk to Doom about it https://prnt.sc/mp93jl I understand that Doom has been on a little hiatus from the server but if I was able to get Doom’s attention for something such as this then surely you could’ve taken three minutes out of your day to ask if they could vote on a potential demotion. Regardless of the outcome, my point is that you have enacted punishment too early as not every staff member was asked. I expect this not to influence the final decision but in the future when you say you ask ALL the staff please make sure you do in fact ask ALL of them. Conveniently and tragically, due to the massive discord overhaul, certain chats were changed or deleted altogether, completely removing evidence to support both sides of the decision. I suppose I could also argue that if you asked players that interact with me if I was toxic that I could also say most of them would say they either don’t mind or don’t care but you would probably only ask the players that do not like me. I’d like to conclude with this:
- There was no distinguishable way to know that getting demoted from multiple ranks with different behavioral expectations was possible
- Futsy preemptively enacted punishment before explicitly lying about ALL staff being contacted about the decision
- There is no proof of me being warned that I could lose trusted rank after demotion from helper.
Once again, if anyone is capable of producing and validating a single document of anyone warning me of potential trusted rank ban, I will drop the case here and now and accept the punishment.
I’m just going to start of with the negatives then bring it back with the positives
I was given absolutely no warning that I could be demoted from trusted
and
There was no distinguishable way to know that getting demoted from multiple ranks with different behavioral expectations was possible
You and I both know that these 2 statements are wrong. You’ve been here long enough to know that players can and have been demoted from trusted rank. Plus, here’s a neat little piece of insight on the rules page:
If you habitually break the rules, you might get demoted or (temporarily) banned. This decision is on the staff’s behalf. Note that this applies to any offense, no matter how minor.
So yeah, just because you didn’t know something doesn’t mean it isn’t true. But on the other hand:
There is no proof of me being warned that I could lose trusted rank after demotion from helper.
That’s something that I’m pretty sure none of us realized when we agreed to demote you. I feel like it’s one of those cases where we all thought someone else warned you, or we just weren’t clear enough in our warnings. EDIT: This following part is wrong but I’m leaving it here for historical reasons But on the other hand, if we find something that contradicts this point than it’s invalid and you ignored our warning.
Futsy preemptively enacted punishment before explicitly lying about ALL staff being contacted about the decision
Yeah you’re right on this one. I don’t mean to throw Futsy under the bus but there closest thing to a vote was this:
Personally I think that Futsy jumped the gun on the demotion, and that having a proper vote for it on the staff subforum would’ve been helpful for a more final vote.
I know I don’t have much say on this since the demotion was a staff decision, but similar to Reds, I’ve never personally had any issues with Tatl being toxic. If anything, I’ve found it rather amusing at times. I do agree Tatl is toxic, and it’s certainly something he should try to work on, but that takes time and I haven’t seen him being warned about toxicity any time recently (although perhaps this is because I was offline/afk at the time). I also don’t exactly see how being demoted from helper acts as a warning that you could be demoted from trusted as the two ranks have entirely different responsibilities and expectations.
I think that the demotion was quite rushed and perhaps a tempban or a formal warning would’ve been a better approach so that Tatl had some way of resolving the toxicity first rather than being punished seemingly out of the blue. However, I can understand that a punishment was maybe needed, but a demotion feels like the wrong punishment.
The only thing I am going to say about this appeal is that we had a proper vote and this is the result:
Ok so, let me “objectively” clear up some of the fog that has been created by Tatl and Rman. There were both true and false/misleading statements in what both of you said.
If any person on the server, staff, or beyond is capable of producing a single document proving that Futsy specifically told me that I could lose my Trusted rank, with validation, I will rest this case immediately and take the punishment without question.
This serves no other purpose than trying to make it seem like the appeal was solely based on Futsy’s call. You being specifically told this one exact thing has nothing to do with the validity of the demotion. I will dimiss this as it doesn’t have any value to either side really.
I’m going to have to paint a picture about this point I’m trying to make but lets say that you are in a respectable position such as a manager in some company and say or do some things that come to bite you in the ass. They tell you that if you don’t get your act together, they’ll remove you from that position and they do because you didn’t listen. Let’s say again that while you’re in a lower position of the common worker, where you no longer have responsibilities, that one day without warning the same punishment is given because you still were being the same. Nobody told you that the same thing could happen again now that you didn’t have the expectations to act a certain way, nobody told you that remaining the same as you’ve been since your initial promotion could demote you arbitrarily two years later, and most importantly, nobody gave you any warnings after the first punishment.
This is not your workplace. Your rank/position is not backed up by laws. You can not try to enforce civil law on this server. Anyway let’s take your scenario and take a look at it:
- You are in a leading Position
- Your general behaviour towards other people you work with is a problem that leads to a formal warning, then a loss of your job. The company however is kind enough to employ you again, in a different position instead of kicking you out entirely
- You do not change your behaviour. You still treat your coworkers in an unacceptable manner. The company, that is fed up with your shit, kicks you out This is not a problem. They can do that. Ignoring the legal circumstances, this would be a perfectly fine thing to do in my opinion. Them allowing you to still work for them is a mistake in the first place, and they only realise that after two months as your behaviour is still the same. They hoped for you to better yourself after you lost your high position, but you didn’t On top of that: Your example is flawed in yet another way. Trusted rank comes with responsibility. You act like a representative of the server. There is very few people who have this rank and you will inevetibly be treated as a beacon for others that want to gain trusted rank themself. So, applying that to the job, you were removed from your manager position and put back down one step: Into customer service. You now treat your customers like shit, they complain about you, and management moves you again, into the “lower position of a common worker”. Which would be even more justified.
I was warned ONLY TWICE about being demoted specifically and exclusively from Helper rank and both of them only by Futsy. In no instance was multiple demotions implied or stated. In short, I was given absolutely no warning that I could be demoted from trusted, no mod told me that I should stop being toxic. I could point fingers at other instances of toxic mods but that is not what this thread is about
Futsy is our lead moderator. Complaining that you weren’t informed by anyone else is (using your example) equivalent to complaining that you were only warned by your boss, but not by idk your coworkers? The rules obviously state that trusted rank is given out by staff as a bonus, an extra, something nice to have. And that staff has all means to take it away if they want to. Are you now going to complain to police officers after crossing a red light that “you weren’t warned about it and the last time when you ran a red light it was with a bike and they told you that the punishment was for “running a red light with a bike”, so it was specifically and exclusively about the bike so you can’t punish me for doing it with a car”.
I would also like to remind everyone that Futsy said word for word: “Just so everyone are aware: We do not demote people from trusted without asking every staff member, so this was a vote where the majority of staff agreed.”
Let’s go back to your example of a company. Now, we don’t have a singular entity as your boss, but we have a staff rank. One of those goes on vacation for two weeks. Obviously they will receive the invitation about the meeting where your demotion will be decided upon, but, due to their holiday, they don’t show up. This will not render your demotion baseless. It was agreed upon in a majority vote by all, at the time, responsible and reasonably available members of the board. The vote was:
- Taken in the dedicated place for it
- Announced properly
- Reminded of, before it was counted
- Evaluated after an appropriate amount of time So, every staff member was properly informed and had the chance to vote on it. The two missing votes are Doomblah, as they have taken an announced and planned break during the time where it happened, and me. I did not vote on the poll because I just recently came back, I don’t see how my vote as an admin is all too much of a concern in a vote about trusted rank, as my job is to be there and fix things that break. Not communicate with people and deal with their behaviour. My vote would have been a no towards the demotion, but it would not have changed the result of the vote, and as I have reasoned above, I do not see me in a position where I should vote on it in the first place.
Understandable that you would discuss this but you didn’t talk to Doom about it
Talked about this above.
I understand that Doom has been on a little hiatus from the server but if I was able to get Doom’s attention for something such as this then surely you could’ve taken three minutes out of your day to ask if they could vote on a potential demotion. Regardless of the outcome, my point is that you have enacted punishment too early as not every staff member was asked. I expect this not to influence the final decision but in the future when you say you ask ALL the staff please make sure you do in fact ask ALL of them.
It was properly announced in the correct places. Everyone had the chance to vote. We do not go out of our way to individually inform people about those things, especially not when they are on a planned vacation, and specifically asked us not to contact them about redstoner related topics unless absolutely necessary. This is not a case of “absolutely necessary”.
Conveniently and tragically, due to the massive discord overhaul, certain chats were changed or deleted altogether, completely removing evidence to support both sides of the decision. I suppose I could also argue that if you asked players that interact with me if I was toxic that I could also say most of them would say they either don’t mind or don’t care but you would probably only ask the players that do not like me.
How much evidence exactly do you want me to dig up? Despite the fact that my vote would’ve been a no if I thought it to be appropriate for me to vote, I do not disagree with the demotion itself.
I’d like to conclude with this:
- There was no distinguishable way to know that getting demoted from multiple ranks with different behavioral expectations was possible -> If you habitually break the rules, you might get demoted or (temporarily) banned. This decision is on the staff’s behalf. Note that this applies to any offense, no matter how minor. -> If you are doing something which disturbs or annoys a large portion of the community, you can be punished. Combining those two, the punishment is indeed according to the rules.
- Futsy preemptively enacted punishment before explicitly lying about ALL staff being contacted about the decision As I have shown above, that statement is misleading at the best, and a manipulative lie at the worst. That’s up to you. The demotion happened according to policy.
- There is no proof of me being warned that I could lose trusted rank after demotion from helper. -> a lack of knowledge of the rules does not exclude you from this rule. (All rules in fact) The rules themself state that you are not immune to them just because you didn’t read them. The demotion was within reason of the rules in place. The rules are commonly known, you should be aware of them, and the fact that you apparently do not know said rules does not protect you from us enforcing them on you.
Tatl done, RedSthunder next:
As a lowly trusted, I know I don’t really have a say in those kind of decisions, but I personally have never been affected in any way by Tatl’s “toxicity” (whatever that means).
Personal anecdote. Doesn’t bring much to the topic, as it’s one individual saying it didn’t matter to them.
Rman: First three points I agree on let’s skip them.
There is no proof of me being warned that I could lose trusted rank after demotion from helper. That’s something that I’m pretty sure none of us realized when we agreed to demote you. I feel like it’s one of those cases where we all thought someone else warned you, or we just weren’t clear enough in our warnings. But on the other hand, if we find something that contradicts this point than it’s invalid and you ignored our warning.
This point is invalid anyway, as the rules are clear, and enforcement is up to staff.
Yeah you’re right on this one. I don’t mean to throw Futsy under the bus but there closest thing to a vote was this:
Except the vote in the dedicated announcement channels that we had. Which you somehow dismissed?
Personally I think that Futsy jumped the gun on the demotion, and that having a proper vote for it on the staff subforum would’ve been helpful for a more final vote.
:crab: The forums are dead :crab: The discord channel we have is good enough. You should have it set to notify you when things get posted in it, if you don’t, then that’s your own responsibility.
Both other replies only support the points made above, or will be more or less implied by my own opinion.
The demotion process itself was done rather fast. However it did meet our policy, was announced properly, and was perfectly compliant with the rules. There is no base to contest this demotion from a rule/policy POV.
Now, my absolute actual personal opinion. This part is no longer objectively written, but rather the opposite. And there will not be an attempt at being serious whatsoever. Just be aware of that. Personal opinion incoming warning? Check! Memes incoming warning? Check!
As I said above, I would have voted no, if I had actually taken my vote. I argued why I didn’t so I’ll skip that, but I didn’t argue why I would’ve voted no. So let’s do that. I myself am, many times, a dick towards people. In a staff position. And as long as it does not come to a point where there is unreasonable hate on someone, where people get insulted (you get the idea), I do not see that it is in fact a problem. As a helped you obviously have to be nice to people and you have a lot of direct contact with them, so it very much will be of value if you are indeed nice, but as TR? Shrug much? Tatl’s been an umm… What’s the nicest word to say this… Yeah right an absolute cunt towards me, but this is perfectly fine because I’m an absolute cunt towards Tatl as well <3 no homo.
Meh, I guess that’s all for now. Pepe out.
The demotion process itself was done rather fast.
I disagree with this. Within the first day, the vote was 5 yeses with only 2 people not even reading the poll. The thing is, all staff votes are majority based, so even if they voted, or the two “I won’t vote” voted, you were already passed the threshold of needing 5 for the measure to pass. The demote wasn’t until a whole nother day later.
when you say you ask ALL the staff please make sure you do in fact ask ALL of them.
We did ask all of them, just because they don’t read it, doesn’t mean we doesn’t mean we didn’t ask. What you said would be the equivalent of someone saying you didn’t ask shufflesninja just because he never got on the discord to read it.
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